Making the most of your AMC 2.5

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Wrench
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Making the most of your AMC 2.5

Postby Wrench » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:50 am

I just cant help myself, I am a performance junkie. I just cant stop searching for that last little bit of hp...

Before my engine build, I searched high and low for info on the 'net on how to tweak more power out of the AMC/Jeep 2.5, and just wasn't coming up with much info. I have since built the engine, and am constantly trying new things to get more power, and hopefully better fuel economy.

Here is what I have right now:
- Pretty much everything in the long block is OEM, except the cam. UPDATE: NOW RUNNING STOCK CAM

- The block was decked about 0.070" to get the squish clearance tight. I am running about 0.030" with a FelPro gasket. FYI, The Victor gasket is several thousandths thicker than the FelPro. Note: this much block-decking will require adjustment to the valve-train, as the pushrods will be a little too long. Note: the 86-up engines use a thinner head gasket, so these specs wont apply.

- The head is mildly ported. I cleaned up the casting flaws, and took alot of the valve-guide material out. I also had a local race-engine guru do some magic to the valves and valve seats.

- The pistons are OEM cast, 0.040" oversize.

-The cam is stock, but advanced 4 degrees.

- For the exhaust, I built my own shorty header, which is probably not the best choice, but better than stock. I would prefer a long-tube header, but noone makes one listed for this year or body style, and I dont know if the header listed for the newer 2.5 will fit this engine and clear all the brackets.

- For the intake, I used a long-runner intake from a mid-90's multi-port injected version of the same engine, and fabricated my own carb adapter plate. I used 2-part epoxy putty to fill the fuel injector holes.

- I am running a Weber 32/36 carb. I originally used a Weber 34/34, but was disappointed in that carb. Hard to tune, hard to find parts for, and rumored to be made by a sub-par manufacturer with the Weber name slapped on it. I fabricated my own air filter holder and use a 9" round paper filter (available on the shelf at most parts stores).

- The ignition system consists of stock components and a Summit digital ignition box. The box really didn't give any more noticeable power, but gave a much-needed rev limiter. FYI, for the inline-6 guys: the 4-banger distributor weights and springs are very different than the ones in the 6. I found alot more power running the 4cyl weights and springs over the 6cyl ones (the wights and springs are different, and the total timing for the 6cyl is dramatically more limited). May be worth a try to see if they work better for the 6 also.

In my quest for more power, I will be running experiments with the cam timing and port profile. Once I get the cam degreed in, I will be putting the Jeep on the dyno to set a baseline. I will then be re-profiling the ports and running it on the dyno again to see just how horrible the stock ports are. :D
Last edited by Wrench on Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:56 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby OldGreen » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:17 am

I know that a fully build 2.5 can push 200HP and 185 ft/lbs. Clifford Performance has all kinds of stuff for them and even a bunch of stuff that they don't list on their site. The bottom end can handle a lot of abuse and while the stock heads flow pretty well (not great), I would definately port and polish them.

From what I remember, the NASCAR truck series guys used to have a special cam grind for these motors. They spun them at 7500RPM litterally all day long. Anywho ... google up six equals eight and then call the Clifford tech guy if he is still alive.

OH> > >if you didn't deck the head toooo much, they love turbos. if you did, then turbo + propane works pretty well too. If you need any gaskets and such, I may have some around from an old project that I gave away. I know I have some rod bearings. . ..

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Postby bobracing » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:55 am

OldGreen wrote:From what I remember, the NASCAR truck series guys used to have a special cam grind for these motors. They spun them at 7500RPM litterally all day long.


Different engine OG. The nascar (old goodie's) ran the 2.5 GM or Iron duke engine. Believe Wrench is talking about the 2.5 AMC engine. Yes 2.5 GMs were used in some CJs but don't think any were used in Cherokees.

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Postby OldGreen » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:32 am

The AMC 2.5 was used in the NASCAR Comanche.

It is the very same motor. The chevy motor and probably a pinto were used as well.

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Postby OldGreen » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:41 am

czek it. . .

Image

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Postby bobracing » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:06 pm

nice try.

Just to make sure you are talking about this engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Straight-4_engine

not this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Iron_Duke_engine

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Postby Wrench » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:19 pm

OldGreen wrote:I know that a fully build 2.5 can push 200HP and 185 ft/lbs. Clifford Performance has all kinds of stuff for them and even a bunch of stuff that they don't list on their site. The bottom end can handle a lot of abuse and while the stock heads flow pretty well (not great), I would definately port and polish them.

From what I remember, the NASCAR truck series guys used to have a special cam grind for these motors. They spun them at 7500RPM litterally all day long. Anywho ... google up six equals eight and then call the Clifford tech guy if he is still alive.

OH> > >if you didn't deck the head toooo much, they love turbos. if you did, then turbo + propane works pretty well too. If you need any gaskets and such, I may have some around from an old project that I gave away. I know I have some rod bearings. . ..


Yeah, I saw their website before the build (forgot about their header). My main objective was to modify the stock stuff to see just how good this engine can be using mostly stock components, and spending as little as possible. So... no turbo or any other high-dollar components. Besides, my compression ratio only allows for about 10 degrees initial timing advance before it pings on 87 octane pump gas. Forced induction would force me to run race fuel.

My header has the same length primary tubes as the Clifford Performance one, but instead of a tri-Y, mine dumps into the collector after the primary tubes. I don't think the little bit of midrange they give is worth the $400 price tag, there are several other ways to get the same power increase for way less $$.

Port and polish?? Sorry, but from what I have learned on a personal basis, those terms just scare me. I have recently found that adding material to the ports and re-profiling them is what works extremely well, while porting (according to "internet and magazine standards") is usually detrimental to power (especially low-end power). And polishing does absolutely NOTHING. It doesn't even deter carbon buildup as some claim.

Progress note:
I put the degree wheel on last night and discovered that my harmonic balancer has slipped. The timing mark is about 10 degrees advanced, which explains why the engine ran best at an indicated 20 degrees of initial advance. :shock:
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Postby OldGreen » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:31 pm

bobracing wrote:nice try.

Just to make sure you are talking about this engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Straight-4_engine

not this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Iron_Duke_engine


Yep. . .the GM 2.5 was used in CJs in the early 80s usually with an SR4 tranny. The AMC 2.5 was used in XJs and MJs and YJs and even TJs mostly in front of the AX5 and (earlier) the AX4. The race Comanche did indeed use the AMC motor. In fact, the cam grind for that motor is still in demand to this day. I think either comp cams or crane made it. . .anywho. . .

BTW: Wikipedia sucks because it used to be guys like us that had all this info stuck in our heads. . .like the 2.5GM uses a SBC bellhousing, whereas the 2.5AMC uses a 60*V6 GM Bell Housing. . .and all the cool crap that goes along with knowing stuff. If we DID happen to be talking about the Iron Duke, then we'd be talking about how you can actually build a lot MORE HP from them because of the availability of parts. I saw one full roller Iron Duke that was pushing 300HP in a race Jeep. It sounded like a hyperactive wood chipper.

Wrench. . .yeah, for low end. . .uh. . .get a V8? :lol: Like you've never heard that before. As far as porting the heads. . .excuse my ignorance in that matter, I was just going by what a guy at Clifford told me. Of course, they wanted me to buy their race head off the shelf. . .I wouldn't worry about their website. I would call them. Those guys know more about AMC inline motors than the AMC engineers did.

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Postby Wrench » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:39 pm

OldGreen wrote:Wrench. . .yeah, for low end. . .uh. . .get a V8? :lol: Like you've never heard that before.


In my Jeep, that would be neither cheap or easy. MAJOR modification to do so, but I did think of that before I started the build.

In fact, I think my entire drive train would MELT at the sight of a healthy V8! :shock:

With the testing I have done so far, I believe the port mods will be quite impressive in the low and midrange department, without sacrificing the already-great top end.
8)
Last edited by Wrench on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby OldGreen » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:08 pm

Sounds sweet. . .I like 4 bangers to be honest. Heck. . .I like anything that burns gas. :lol:

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Postby Roman » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:42 pm

OldGreen wrote:Sounds sweet. . .I like 4 bangers


Heck! He likes 4 bangers SO much he pulled half the plug wires off his 304 . . . :twisted:

sorry jimmy, couldn't help it!

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Postby Wrench » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:40 am

OldGreen wrote:Sounds sweet. . .I like 4 bangers to be honest. Heck. . .I like anything that burns gas. :lol:


I'm with ya'!

In fact, I prefer a little sweet castor oil smell in the mix!

On that note, I just have to mention: I spent almost 5 years in Japan. They had little Suzuki Samaria's over there with 2-stroke engines in them! Ring-ding-ding!!
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Postby Lurch » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:28 am

I love the smell of two stroke in the morning :)
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Postby OldGreen » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:30 am

Wrench wrote:
OldGreen wrote:Sounds sweet. . .I like 4 bangers to be honest. Heck. . .I like anything that burns gas. :lol:


I'm with ya'!

In fact, I prefer a little sweet castor oil smell in the mix!

On that note, I just have to mention: I spent almost 5 years in Japan. They had little Suzuki Samaria's over there with 2-stroke engines in them! Ring-ding-ding!!


pre-Samurai, they had that Jimny thingy that was not only two stroke, but also SMALLER than a sami by quite a bit. . .they were pioneers in the UTV market and didn't even know it. . .HAHAHAHA.

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Postby White trash » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:23 pm

OldGreen wrote:
Wrench wrote:
OldGreen wrote:Sounds sweet. . .I like 4 bangers to be honest. Heck. . .I like anything that burns gas. :lol:


I'm with ya'!

In fact, I prefer a little sweet castor oil smell in the mix!

On that note, I just have to mention: I spent almost 5 years in Japan. They had little Suzuki Samaria's over there with 2-stroke engines in them! Ring-ding-ding!!


pre-Samurai, they had that Jimny thingy that was not only two stroke, but also SMALLER than a sami by quite a bit. . .they were pioneers in the UTV market and didn't even know it. . .HAHAHAHA.





SJ410 is the earlier smaller sami if memory serves. 3 cylinder air cooled 2 stroke. Pretty cool rigs stock but everything is tiny on them...

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Postby Wrench » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:50 pm

I checked the cam with my degree wheel. Specs are updated in the original post.

I found out the cam installed "straight up" left me with the intake lobe centerline at 112 degrees. Looks like the cam had no built-in advance (with 112 degree lobe separation), which would explain the lack of low-end power and top end that never went flat.

I installed a Mr. Gasket offset crank key and retested with my degree wheel. The intake lobe centerline is now at 108 degrees (4 degrees advanced). We'll see how the pant-seat dyno feels and go from there... :D

Oh, last note: I also checked valve clearance. Anyone worried about valve clearances on these AMC engines with stock pistons shouldnt worry at all. With the valves straight up and down, there is an ENORMOUS amount of room between the valves and pistons at TDC. Somewhere around a half-inch. I had over 0.4" even with all the block-decking.
Last edited by Wrench on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Roman » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:36 pm

Keep it up Paul, I gotts a 4cyl YJ in the back yard wantin' some lov'in

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Postby Wrench » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:55 pm

Update:
got the carb readjusted.

Advancing the cam gave more vacuum at idle and made the pilot circuit run richer. It also made a noticeable increase in power down low and in the midrange. Peak power seems about the same, but that could just be an illusion since it has more power down low.

She definitely runs down the freeway a bit happier!
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Postby Wrench » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:41 am

Update:
The Jeep feels like I have the jetting nailed down good, she runs really good at all RPM's and throttle positions.

I was having a little issue with spark knock on the freeway at WOT and at part throttle. I dug into the distributor again and did a little tweaking

Evidently, the mechanical advance was advancing too soon and at full advance at too low of rpm. I tweaked the springs a tad and gave them a little more preload, which shifted the advance to a higher RPM range. Tested on the freeway again, and the spark knock was gone! I actually tested several more times at different initial advance settings, and found I was able to set the initial advance a few degrees higher. So now, I have no spark knock on the freeway, and I am getting better throttle response driving around town.

Looks like my fuel mileage is increasing as well!

I am also looking into running spark plugs that are a little cooler to help prevent detonation and preignition. The stock plug recommendation is equivalent to a "5" heat range in NGK standards (very HOT). According to the specs, these plugs will physically fit the Jeep 2.5 (NGK plug #):

-BCPR7ES-projected electrode design, NGK stock number 6282
-BKR7E-standard elecrode design with V-groove, NGK stock number 4644

Denso equivalent:
IK22=BKR7E
IK20=BKR6E

The stock plug for this engine has a dramatically projected tip. I dont think there is any performance difference between the projected and standard, and this engine has more than enough room for either.

Instead of an "S", I can also use an "IX" plug which is platinum, though alot more expensive.

I am not sure, but I think the 2.5 plugs are interchangeable with the inline-6 Jeep engines.
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Postby Wrench » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:46 am

...disregard this post...
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Postby Wrench » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:39 pm

Bad news:

after about 1500 miles on this engine, the distributor gear is toast. It quit on me when pulling out of the driveway the other day.

Looks like the drive gear on the cam is no good either. Funny thing is, the gear teeth on the cam seem to be offset. When cranking the engine with the distributor removed, I can see the teeth move back and forth. With the distributor installed and a new drive gear on, the distributor oscillates back and forth when cranking the engine.

Bummer, back to the drawing board...

...and my Cheep is not sticking to its name... :x
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Postby sams88 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:06 pm

Too bad, sorry to hear that. :-(
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Postby OldGreen » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:53 am

I saw your Jeep sitting on the overpass on Road 100 the other day! Sorry you busted.

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Postby Wrench » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:38 pm

Yep, that was me trying a last ditch effort to revive the Jeep. I borrowed the distributor drive gear out of my spare engine. It lasted for about 2 miles. :(

My reground cam only had a 1 year warranty, and I purchased it almost 2 years ago. :( It is just a shame that the whole cam is wasted since the distributor gear drive teeth on it are bad.

Found this from Summit:
Melling CL-SRC-9 - Melling M-Select Torque Cam and Lifter Kits
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-CL-SRC-9/Application/?prefilter=0

Seems fairly close to what I had. 2 degrees wider LSA and 14 degrees less duration @ 0.050, but 0.004 more lift. Should make more usable power at lower revs.

Anyone know what the stock cam specs are? I cant seem to find them anywhere. I just want to compare the Melling cam to the stock specs.

I was also tossing up the idea of snagging the stock cam out of my spare engine and throwing it in, if that cam is still usable.
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Postby Lurch » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:29 pm

I would be afraid of the metal that went through your engine. You may want to drop the oil pan and check out a couple bearings.
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