Reiter Foothills

[Grumpy]

November 6, 2009



State DNR to hold public meeting on Reiter Foothills Forest Recreation Plan


OLYMPIA – The Washington State Department of Natural Resources (DNR) will host a public meeting to provide information and receive public comments on a draft recreation plan for the Reiter Foothills Forest.

Reiter Foothills Forest is a popular recreation area located in eastern Snohomish County near Gold Bar and Index.

When: Wednesday, November 18, 6:30 to 8 p.m.

Where: The Commons, Monroe High School, 17001 Tester Rd., Monroe


In 2007, the Washington State Legislature recognized the challenges of managing recreational use at Reiter Foothills Forest and funded DNR’s development of a sustainable recreation plan. For the past two years, DNR has worked with a diverse group of stakeholders—including citizens, user groups, representatives from conservation groups, and local officials—to create a recreation plan that identifies long-term recreation uses and addresses problems in the area.

In addition to Reiter Foothills Forest, DNR is also doing sustainable recreation planning for two other forest areas in Washington State: Ahtanum State Forest near Yakima and the western portion of the Yacolt Burn State Forest, north of Washougal.

DNR will release the draft Reiter Foothills Forest Recreation Plan on its web site on Tuesday, November 10. DNR is requesting feedback from the public about the findings and recommendations in this plan. In conjunction with the public review of the plan, DNR is also conducting an official State Environmental Policy Act (SEPA) process. The public comment period runs from November 10 through December 4.

For more information about the meeting, contact Candace Johnson, 360-854-2803 or candace.johnson@dnr.wa.gov.

The public can provide all written comments about the Reiter Foothills Forest Recreation Plan or the SEPA environmental analysis to:
Washington State Department of Natural Resources
SEPA Center
PO Box 47105
Olympia, WA 98504
sepacenter@dnr.wa.gov


__________________________________________________________________________________

Visit DNR online:

[Grumpy]

Today (November 10th) the Department of Natural Resources released their Draft Recreation Plan for Reiter Foothills Forest; the 61 pages plan can be reviewed and downloaded at:

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/Publications/a...t_11_10_09.pdf

Public comment peiord runs November 10 through December 4.

The DNR will be presenting the Draft Recreation Plan at a public meeting scheduled for Novemebr 18th (6:30 -8:00 p.m.) Monroe High School, The Commons, 17001 Tester Road, Monroe; your findings and recommendations are welcomed either at the meeting or submit to:

Washingtion State Department of Natural Resources
SEPA Center
P.O. Box 47105
Olympia, WA 98504
sepacenter@dnr.wa.gov

[Grumpy]

The Signpost Blog

DNR Charts New Management Direction for Reiter Foothills
Posted by Jonathan Guzzo at Nov 12, 2009 10:55 AM | Permalink
Filed under: Advocacy Opportunity Trails Funding & Policy
Read comments ( 1 so far)


The Reiter Forest, a patch of State land managed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) that borders both the Wild Sky Wilderness and Wallace Falls State Park, has been for many years a lost landscape. Reiter has been unmanaged, and in the absence of planning and on-the-ground agency presence, renegade motorized use has taken hold.

As a consequence, it’s laced with a network of roads, damaged trails, and cross-country routes pioneered by so-called “tube buggiesâ€

[Grumpy]

The following was received from the Department of Natural Resources with regards to Reiter Foothills and its future. I have asked that Region Director's address this at their next meeting - your input on this matter is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Arlene

Hi Arlene,

I need your help in getting the word out, vandalism at Reiter is unacceptable and if it continues there is a high risk of the ORV community losing access to this area. I can't emphasize enough that we all are being watched with skepticism that ORV'ers are responsible recreationalist. I know that these are not your members but I need your help in sending a loud and visible message to the ORV community that success or failure in keeping existing or creating new opportunities for ORV facilities is in their hands. The fact that whoever did this clearly was driving up a creek and destroying public property(Cable fence) tells me that they were not members of your organization but they are unfortunately tainting the whole ORV community. The continued destruction of public property by the few will impact future ORV access opportunities across the state.

More importantly, based on the conversations I have had with Commissioner Goldmark, this behavior is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated by the department.

For our part, we are beefing up our emphasis patrols, we have been and will continue to write citations and the region will be working with the local user groups to set up a more formal Forest Watch program to make sure that we nip this unacceptable behavior in the bud.

My focus is to make sure that the implementation of the Reiter Plan is successful, however, I can't be successful without the support of the ORV community and the ORV community cannot be successful in opening up new areas such as Reiter without the support of the recreational community, Department of Natural Resources and the State Legislature .........we all have a lot riding on being successful at Reiter.

Any thoughts or suggestions you may have on how to turn this around would be wecome.

Thanks, Mark

Mark Mauren, Assistant Division Manager
Recreation, Public Access and WCC Programs
Asset Management and Recreation Division
Washingtion State Department of Natural Resources
mark.mauren@dnr.wa.gov
###
Arlene Brooks, WA. State Director (pnw4wda -c)
*************************************************************

The mention of Goldmark should scare hell out of all of us! He's a conservationist to the core. We can't give him any excuses to shut land down. What happens at Reiter could affect all DNR lands...DW

[tobyw]

[quote="Grumpy"]“tube buggiesâ€

[Grumpy]

Special thanks from Piston's Wild Motorsports to the losers tearing up Rieter.

We now have a lovely new list of hoops from DNR to jump through for the Yacolt Burn project. We are still on track to start building trails in the Spring - but we were almost done with the red tape and now we have some more to cut through - thanks to those who treat Rieter as their personal demolition site.

Even all the way down here in Vancouver - we hear that "Whore 4x4" is the primary problem in the Rieter area - why hasn't the PNW put a stop to their reckless behavior following their motto "Any Trail, Any Time, Any Where"?

The Commissioner of Public Lands made a personal visit to Reiter and is "PISSED OFF" about the conditions of the area and is holding the ENTIRE OHV community responsible. As a reaction he is implementing a new list of requirements for us to address in our pursuit of trails in the Yacolt Burn.

I've seen some folks from NW Wheelers forum and PNW Jeep forum showing interest in working in this area and getting nothing but grief from the 4x4 community. Who is the PNW4WDA liason for the Rieter area and why are the user groups not working together to fix this problem with DNR?

Is there anything we can do from down here to support the effort to get Rieter under control the (BS Icon Edited By The System-DW) up there is oozing all the way down to SW Washington!

Please advise.
__________________
Crystal Crowder
aka "Pistons Chick"
Club President
Piston's Wild Motorsports
www.pistonswild.com
PNW4WDA Member for 22 Years (FWIW)
(360) 606-1648

"Some people are like slinkies, not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."

[Grumpy]

The mention of Goldmark should scare hell out of all of us! He's a conservationist to the core. We can't give him any excuses to shut land down. What happens at Reiter could affect all DNR lands...DW

[White trash]

I know a few of the "WHORE'S" and they are good guys. I can't vouch for all of them but anyone that is blaming them when all the thieves and tweakers in the area are dumping garbage, dumping stolen vehicles and stripping stuck/broken rigs is short sighted and just plain wrong.

[Grumpy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceg_
I also think it is messed up to be pointing fingers without see personally who is doing the damage.

Seriously Ceg - I respect all of the great things that you and your group do up North, but just spending a few minutes "googling" Whore 4x4 gives you an overly offensive, immediate and painful view into "how they roll".

A year ago when I first heard about them - I looked at some of their YouTube videos and found them disgusting - not only their vulgar human behavior in general, but especially the complete and utter lack of respect for the areas where they were 4-wheeling.

Their site is somewhat cleaned up now (missing the pictures and videos of rampant destruction), probably because a year ago I sent DNR some links to their website and youtube videos and some warnings were issued. But if you spend a little time connecting the virtual "dots" - tracking their members personal activities on MySpace and Facebook - those are not so carefully edited...

The only reason I even had the club name to google was from talking to DNR staff and talking to PNW4WDA wheelers from the Gold Bar area - I don't think I've missed the mark here - the research backs up the rumors...

We had this same type of lawlessness down in the Yacolt Burn - we made it a priority to track them down, gather evidence and turn them in to law enforcement. When we first started, we had one LEO (law enforcement officer) who was responsible for 1/4 of the state of Washington - needless to say, we didn't see him very much.

With all of the volunteer hours we put in for forest watch patrols, including the hours spent google-stalking the offenders, DNR was able to secure a grant for a dedicated Education and Enforcement officer. He started in July 2009 - and our major problems in the Yacolt Burn are fading quickly. We also perform regular nightime "saturation patrols" with DNR law enforcement, Fish & Wildlife, Longview Fiber, Clark County Sheriff and Skamania County Sheriff. We cruise the forest at night, locate offenders and radio in backup. We lean HARD on law enforcement to write tickets - not warnings! And they do.

DNR staff is always shorthanded, always underfunded and does not have the time to track offenders down. When you have groups like Whore 4x4 that run "indistinguishable" vehicles - all beat up, mostly black in color and no plates or ORV tags - it makes them even harder to track down. But we did it -- it sucked up alot of our time and yeah - we pissed some people off - but it had to be done to get to the next step, building trails...

We have taken the forest back from the criminals and are preparing it to be a safe and "family" friendly forest - that was not the case just two years ago... Word on the street now is - behave badly in the Yacolt Burn and you WILL get a ticket -- that's what we were looking for...

I have never been to Rieter (because it is not a sanctioned ORV area) - so I cannot personally review videos and pictures and determine the locations of the offenses and submit this info to DNR. Someone who knows that area would have to take on that task. I'm happy to help that person learn how to google-stalk, but I can't do it alone with my limited knowledge of the area.

I know that the DNR LEO, Kim, from that area, works hard and tries to do her best, but keep in mind that LEO's cannot work alone - they cannot engage offenders without backup in the area - and, as a general rule, LEO's will not engage after dark (which is when most of the problems occur) without "extra" backup. Our LEO is well over 6 feet tall with strong military background and he struggles with following DNR's rules of engagement - I can't even begin to imagine the difficulty a small statured female LEO is experiencing in a zoo such as Rieter...

Keep in mind, when the offenders can no longer access Rieter - they are not going to stop wheeling. They will be coming to a forest near you, where you will get the priviledge of cleaning up after them. Whose area will they be responsible for closing down next ? ? ?

Tahuya? Ahtanum?
__________________
Crystal Crowder
aka "Pistons Chick"
Club President
Piston's Wild Motorsports
www.pistonswild.com
PNW4WDA Member for 22 Years (FWIW)
(360) 606-1648

[Grumpy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave McMains
My next thought is that it is some environmental group trying to make the OHV community look bad. It would be easy to do! I would like for the DNR to explore that possibility.

The OHV community is doing a far better job of making themselves look bad than any environmental group could ever hope to aspire to. Let go of the environmental group thing - if the ORV'ers start doing a better job of taking care of the forest - the environmentalists will start to back off.

I've seen pictures of the conditions at Rieter and I'm offended - aren't you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave McMains
Their first conclusion is it is un educated OHV users doing the damage but I often wonder if it is really not us!

It sucks to think about it - but it might be some of "us" doing the damage - in which case - regular patrols will either bring that to light or stop it in it's tracks -- both of which get you to the end goal - stopping the bad behavior.

I have a "friend" who I know frequents illegal trails in the Yacolt Burn - I have asked him on many occasions to stop his activity until we can get legal trails built - he feels he has a right to ride there and refuses to stop.

Someday - I will find him out there on one of my patrols - and he WILL get ticket.
__________________
Crystal Crowder
aka "Pistons Chick"
Club President
Piston's Wild Motorsports
www.pistonswild.com
PNW4WDA Member for 22 Years (FWIW)
(360) 606-1648

[Grumpy]

I already read the draft "PLAN" from cover to cover...

My take on it is this:

1. A lot of fluff about the planning committee...no value added

2. A listing of the various rules and Regs (RCW'S and such) that pertain...value

3. There's not even a hint of a schedule, timeline, costs, etc...no value added

4 There's reference to them making "decisions based on sound science" but there are numerous areas that I found that show there was no science invloved, only speculation and assumptions based on something less than "sound science"...no value added

5. Lots of info about the DNR, what they do,the lands they manage and where...no value added

6. We had approximatley 50 miles of user built trails...good fact to know as we now have 0.

7. Recreation use is specifically no listed in the Snohomish County code as either a prohibited use or as a use subject to the submission of a hydrogeological report...good to know as this relates to the Index aquafer we here so much about

8. The USFS wanted to ensure that their was a buffer on DNR lands, public lands, to keep the opportuinty of trespassing into the Wild Sky area to a minimum...The DNR agreed, even though they are not required to, thus further lilmited the avaliable land for recreational opportunities.

9. Everything at Reiter depends on the availablity of funding...no news there

10. No where in the 60+ page report does it mention how many dollars are currently available to support the implementation...no value added

11. It mentions in several places that they are wanting to "aquire and consolidate" Reiter foothills. To me this means they are looking at purchasing land they currently do not have and/or have access rights to...unless this newly acquired land is going to be designated ORV use there is no value added and seems like an inapproriate use of funds until such time that recreation opportunities are restored in some capacity at Reiter.

12. It is their stragegy to use input from not only the consultant but also the motorized group and DNR staff when determining designated trail locations...this means that they are not relying strictly on an outside consultant to figure out where and how the trail system is implemented.

13. It is their strategy to establish an upper limit for vehicle width and or vehcile size...ridiculous at best given the varied ORV use at Reiter

14. It is their strategy to minimize potential environmental impact by using seasonal closures...no value added for recreational use

15. The "Implementation" of the "plan" is broken down into 6 phases, a timeline is not given and the focus on motorized use is not brought up until phase 2...without a schedule it's just another list

16. They provided a list of various sources of $$$ for suporting public lands...State Gasoline Tax, Grants, ORV Tab Fees...it also says that the ORV tab portion can only be used for ORV activities. NOVA gets some of it's $$$ from ORV tab fees and we all remember where these funds recently got redirected too.

17. Volunteers are still important for both completing projects and grant $$$'s...no news there

18. They provide a list of species (animal and such) that are "likely" to be found at Reiter...just FYI, the list includes 24 species including Grizzly Bears and Wolverines, there 's no supporting eveidence that any of these species exist at Reiter...there's a great example of sound science.

19. The "Plan" includes the "Kickoff Meeting Content"...if you strip out all the old content that we've already seen over the past two years what you have left is a report that should be less than 10 pages whcih includes the Maps and the "Implementaton plan"...fluff


The report has a few pages of good info but consists mainly of boiler plate DNR info, facts, and propoganda about Fish & Wildlie, USFS, etc...

The bottom line is that they have a plan that doesn't currently include a schedule or cost estimate, therefore no way to be held accountable for anything other than protecting the States, Counties, Cities, USFS & F&W interests at Reiter.

Thank You,
Brad

[Grumpy]

At the DNR Reiter Foothills Forest Recreation Plan — Public Review Meeting this evening I talked with several of the DNR People present. No don’t ask for names as I am terrible with names, but they were all DNR Employees there to answer questions.

The issue that I raised with them and received the same answer from all:

1. Just how supportative of ORV Recreation on DNR Land was DNR Management.
All responded that DNR recognizes the need for areas to conduct ORV Recreational activities.

2. During the course of the conversations the use of the term “Pilot Programâ€

[PistonsChick]

I know a few of the "WHORE'S" and they are good guys. I can't vouch for all of them but anyone that is blaming them when all the thieves and tweakers in the area are dumping garbage, dumping stolen vehicles and stripping stuck/broken rigs is short sighted and just plain wrong.

Oh yes - let's throw a party for the "WHORE'S" - because they surely represent the foundation of responsible 4-wheeling.

When the general public is out in the forest and happens to come across a group of the "WHORE'S" - I'm certain that they walk away with a warm, fuzzy feeling about the 4x4 community...

Is is really a coincidence that their "hood" is the one getting shut down?

[iaccocca]

I know a few of the "WHORE'S" and they are good guys. I can't vouch for all of them but anyone that is blaming them when all the thieves and tweakers in the area are dumping garbage, dumping stolen vehicles and stripping stuck/broken rigs is short sighted and just plain wrong.

Oh yes - let's throw a party for the "WHORE'S" - because they surely represent the foundation of responsible 4-wheeling.

When the general public is out in the forest and happens to come across a group of the "WHORE'S" - I'm certain that they walk away with a warm, fuzzy feeling about the 4x4 community...

Is is really a coincidence that their "hood" is the one getting shut down?

From what I've seen, some of these guys, would be getting their picture taken by Peanut if she was around.

[Grumpy]

I looked at their site for a bit this morning, and I have to admit, a couple of them do seem to "get it". Like Crystal however, I've seen some vids of 'em in action, and I wasn't impressed.

[White trash]

I know a few of the "WHORE'S" and they are good guys. I can't vouch for all of them but anyone that is blaming them when all the thieves and tweakers in the area are dumping garbage, dumping stolen vehicles and stripping stuck/broken rigs is short sighted and just plain wrong.

Oh yes - let's throw a party for the "WHORE'S" - because they surely represent the foundation of responsible 4-wheeling.

When the general public is out in the forest and happens to come across a group of the "WHORE'S" - I'm certain that they walk away with a warm, fuzzy feeling about the 4x4 community...

Is is really a coincidence that their "hood" is the one getting shut down?

Calm down and put your big girl panties of for a second and think about what I wrote. I'm not saying that some of them didn't/don't tear things up on a consistent basis. I'm saying that to blame only them for all of the issues with reiter is dumb and just plain wrong. I consider one of them a friend and another a decent buddy but for the most part I can do without them. But that doesn't change the fact that it isn't just them or any one group, it's a LOT of groups doing damage, they are just an easy target for someone that doesn't know a damned thing but what they saw on the intardnet to blame.

[SPR]

they are just an easy target

If they are a legit target, then shoot way. When finished, move on to the next real target(s).

[White trash]

they are just an easy target

If they are a legit target, then shoot way. When finished, move on to the next real target(s).

Some of them are. But the flip side to that coin is so are a few people in EVERY group out there.

[Beep Beep]

Post by Peanut and deleted my Jim.

EDITTED FOR MY FRIEND DAN

Lucky this was e-mail since I was watching the thread.

[PistonsChick]

WOW! - is PROZAC not available on the East side?

I know you think it is your job to "shut me up" (LOL) , but all you really are is the mighty defender of those who tear up the trails - and by sticking your nose where it wasn't invited - you are basically encouraging those who behave badly to continue their actions.

Bunk is a big boy and was defending himself just fine, I was hearing what he had to say and he heard what I had to say - but most importantly the conversation was taking place. Do I believe that Bunk has always "treaded lightly" - NO. Do I believe that he is trying to do better - YES. And that - is progress for us both.

Matter of fact I was attending meetings with the DNR about Reiter in Everett at least 5 years ago.

If you have been working so successfully with DNR for the last 5 years - why is Reiter now closed?

I've only been working with the DNR for 3 years and I know precisely what pisses them off -- the very crap that was displayed in those videos. And I also know what happens next when 4x4's damage an area to that extent - CLOSURE - not temporary closure - PERMANENT CLOSURE!

Unlike you I have wheeled Reiter, lived in western WA, know the terrain and the weather conditions.

Nope - I've never been to Reiter -- BECAUSE IT IS HAS NEVER BEEN A SANCTIONED ORV AREA FOR 4X4'S.

And I will likely NEVER go to Reiter - - BECAUSE THE ENTIRE AREA IS NOW CLOSED TO MOTORIZED ACTIVITY.

Where exactly do you think I live - on Mars? The Washington AND Northern Oregon coast ranges are all the same - EXTREMELY WET RAIN FORESTS!

You and your "Trashy" never seem to miss a chance to call me "uneducated, clueless, or mis-informed - but, I must have figured at least a few things out - because in Spring of 2010, we will be OPENING 4x4 TRAILS in an area that has been closed for 20 years...

Honestly, Peanut, don't you think you should review what's not working with your ORV Trail Watch S.O.P.'s and try something new? I hear that you are the "owner", maybe you can effect some change there...

I've spent hundreds of hours with DNR resource managers, DNR "ologists", timber sale coordinators, in-holdings owners, forest neighbors, Fish & Wildlife, DNR Law Enforcement, Washington Trails Association, Backcountry Horsemen, Dirt Bikers, ATV'ers, mountain bikers and even Sierra Club members - I've done MY research finding out what motivates them and how we can get them not only off our backs, but at least to a point where they are willing to work in cooperation with all of the users of the forest.

The NUMBER ONE thing that pisses them off and causes them to set their sights on the 4x4 community is the content like what was in those videos and the recent horrific conditions of the Reiter area.

You like to stir the pot so much - why haven't you done more in your 22 years with the PNW4WDA? Why aren't you doing more now to help an area larger than the Yacolt Burn????? Maybe try wheeling other areas and learning about them.

I guess you need to do your research, Peanut.

I have wheeled Naches Trail on multiple occassions including Kaner, Funny Rocks and Moon Rocks. I would love to visit Tahuya, but just could not find the time this summer - next year for certain. I joined the PNW when I was 19 and I've spent most of my PNW4WDA years racing off-road - but when the trails started to become sadly endangered, I re-aligned my priority to off-road recreation trails preservation for 4x4's, ATV's and Snowmobiles.

I spend hundeds of hours each year working in the Tillamook State Forest (which is still OPEN by the way) and we volunteer at the Sand Lake Recreation area (which is also OPEN) and I am a member of the Gifford Pinchot Off-Highway Vehicle Alliance (where an OHV forest plan is underway). There is also a new area between Portland and Astoria called Dirt Church that we are just starting to look into for 4x4's. My club works with a local high school shop class "drag racing team". I am on the board for the Mt. Hood Snowmobile Club and I am a member of the Jones Creek Trail Riders Association. My husband and I have also supported the PNW4WDA race tracks for at least the last 17 years. We are also working with a local property owner in Woodland, WA to open up a potential off-road event facility and working with TNT Diversified to promote off-road events at Portland International Raceway.

And I still manage to find the time to come out here on the web occasionally and piss you off.

Crystal you like to rave on and on so much about what you have accomplished down in the Yacolt Burn - why aren't you stepping up to the plate and assisting some of the other areas that could use your help? I'm sure there are some that would jump at having someone help that has been through some of the same stuff that they are going through.

I help 4x4 reps in other areas all the time - ask around. Actually my post in the MEMBERS ONLY SECTION OF THE PNW4WDA forum was supposed to be a conversation starter with the "members of the PNW4WDA" - which in the end it was - but I had to waste my time tonight finding out where you were going to "trash" me so I could defend MYSELF.

What I am not willing to do is waste my time with wheelers and riders who mix alcohol and motorsports, nor am I interested in helping those who condone it. Alcohol has it's place - just not in the bloodstream of someone responsible for driving a motor vehicle (of any kind).

And once again, for the third and final time, just because you happened to share a Heidelburg with someone, at sometime or another, you shouldn't give them a free pass to destroy the forest.

You and "yours" have a self proclaimed level of tolerance for people who drive under the influence and tear up trails.

I DO NOT.

It is highly unlikely we will ever find common ground . . .

And that's MY RANT.

[Grumpy]

And I thought this was going to be an informational thread! You know, the both of you are working for the same ends, but don't seem to agree on method. I will reserve comment on W.H.O.R.E. as I don't know any of them. Yes, the vids are way incriminating, but do we know for sure who's in them? At this point, I think the best thing to do is for those of us who aren't directly involved to back off and let RTW and DNR work on this! I'd like to not have the argument about all the this spill into this site, either! Not what it's here for...I'd suggest if you ladies care to continue your discussion, please do it via PM's, either here of on PNW, not out in the open.

[PistonsChick]

Sorry Dave,

I meant no disrepect to the Peak Putters or this site. Please accept my apologies and feel free to delete any of my posts that do not follow your forum guidelines.

But you did kind of open the door when you copied three "controversial" posts over to this site from the PNW4WDA "members only" section. And CEG brought it back to the grind by posting Peanut's "rant".

The PNW4WDA notoriously side steps controversial topics and I was trying to get the conversation started about "taking the bull by the horns" - so to speak...

Was the "members only" section the best place for it? No

But if I posted that content anywhere else on the forum - it would have been immediately deleted. Even when I gave the moderators my permission to bring the entire thread out into the open, they determined that it was not in the best interest of the forum or the association.

My orignal post was intended to "start a fire" under the PNW4WDA membership - not get into a hair pulling contest with Peanut (again).

Crystal

[Beep Beep]

I am also sorry. If Crystal would not have slandered anyone, NONE of this drama would have ever happened.

[Grumpy]

PNW needs to find their balls and start backing the efforts in all three states! They are too conservative to survive in the political arena we are forced to work in, and best start realizing that! My intention when cross posting was not so much to start a war, as it was to get the gang here up to speed on some issues out of our area. What happens in one DNR area is going to affect us all. And I wish you and Peanut would find the common ground you do have, and start getting to know each other better!! You are both passionate about what we do, and that passion needs to be channeled to the common good!

[PistonsChick]

Again - CEG, we will have to agree to disagree.

The drama has to happen at some point - to invoke change.

Reiter does not seem to be getting any "better" - we obviously need to do something differently...