Flags are required at Juniper

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Hey Guys and gals, I hate to be a downer, but.....

here goes... I bought a 89 Toyota pickup and spent over $1800 getting it fixed up to play at Juniper dunes. ..

2 weeks later,... Got the family out to go Wheelin' .

My wife and 2 kids are with me , out to have a little fun , and doin prety good at it till,.....

Some "perfectly nice" sheriff , comes out to spoil our fun by telling me that I absolutely MUST have a warning flag. ( BTW,.. Sign reads,.... "Warning flags required on motorcycles and dirt bikes.") No mention at all of any requirements for any other sort of vehicle.

( OK the wording on that federally posted sign needs to be fixed)



he says " I will give you a citation if you crest the hill again"

So, needless to say,... " Family day out ,... RUINED!

I have a Very Busy Family life and this excursion was 3 months in the planning, as soon as I bought the truck , we started planning ( including the $1800 in preventative maintenance before we went).

3 months and $1800 down the drain pretty much.



But I digress, the main point is the signage at the juniper dunes, change the sign or let me ride.

P.S. It was not about the cost of getting a flag, but about the amount of time required to go get one on the 1 day we get every 6 months to go do something. I did my research beforehand, and Thought I knew for a FACT that 4x4 trucks are NOT required to have a flag out at Juniper Dunes. because I talked to people at the parks dept and sheriffs office and both said not required on trucks just the smaller vehicles like bikes atvs and such for visibility.

P.P.S. I now have a flag to avoid a hassle

P.P.S.S. This post has been severely edited to remove some elements that were causing offense.

[tobyw]

some stupid sheriff , ( I only say this because he was absolutely wrong ) comes out to spoil our fun by telling me that I absolutely MUST have a warning flag.

some "uninformed Sheriff who does not understand his own county LAWS.

and on the misinformed word of a county sheriff 3 months and $1800 down the drain pretty much.

I did my research beforehand, and Know for a FACT that 4x4 trucks are NOT required to have a flag out at Juniper Dunes.

Sorry bud, but your research skills need some sharpening...

Here is the BLM website all about Juniper:

http://www.blm.gov/or/resources/recreat ... siteid=270

And, here is the document that stipulates the definition of an OHV (which your Toyot@ meets) and that flags are indeed required once you leave the main access roads:

http://www.blm.gov/or/resources/recreat ... -20338.pdf

[White trash]

Not only is a flag required but its a damned good idea to run one anyway.

[OldGreen]

Yep, a dune flag is a great way to keep a motorcycle from parking on your roof.

A couple of things:

1. Ignorance of the law is no excuse (a sign is a sign. . .but many times, there are no signs at all AND there are still rules)
2. The county sheriff deputy was enforcing a federal rule on federal land. . .not a county law.
3. We have certainly found that law enforcement is not our enemy. Law makers, environmentalists and people that don't follow the rules sometimes are. LEOs are just out there doin' a job.

Please take the replies in this thread as thoughtful education. You were wrong and now you know the rules. You are lucky you didn't get a ticket or end up in a crash.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Sorry folks, didn't really mean to offend you all . There is clearly stated signage at the dunes that says " Safety flags on dirt bikes and motorcycles." and (I believe) this is a federally posted sign. If so,.....

then why is there a sign still out there stating the rules if those rules are wrong?

Did you guys fully read my post?
[/u]

[White trash]

Did you guys fully read my post?
[/u]

Nope, I just looked at the pictures.


It's a .gov thing to screw up signs. While it isn't clear it is still correct in that motorcycles and OHV's need to have a flag. Look at the definition of OHV in the rules and you'll see that an OHV is ANY vehicle capable of cross country travel period.

[iaccocca]

I believe the icon you are looking for is

Dude, flags are required and make good sense and the good people here have taken the time to nicely educate you. The sign is because the motorcycles and atvs have to have flags on the road and off. Street legal wheelers only need them when they venture off the road... say on that dune you were going to crest again. Our dealings with the sheriff's deputies have been positive and I'm sure this one was just trying to educate you. You have your flag now and you didn't get a citation... time to go play in the dunes.

[tobyw]

Did you guys fully read my post?
[/u]

Why yes, yes I did?

And as OG pointed out, a vague or even misleading sign is no excuse for ignorance to the rules. Ever seen a 35mph speed limit sign near a school, and wondered why you got pulled over for only doing 32mph?

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

I think there needs to be some clarification between a OHV and a ORV.

An OHV as defined by auto manufacturers is a vehicle design not intended for highway use.

An ORV is a vehicle designed with off road use in mind, but intended for use on major highways.

People seem to use these interchangeably but they are very different.

An OHV is illegal for "normal" highway use. So you can understand the confusion created these are used interchangeably .

[iaccocca]

Long story short (yeah, way tooo late for that)...

You need a flag in the dunes.

The deputy wasn't ignorant.

We are just trying to help.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Did you guys fully read my post?
[/u]

Why yes, yes I did?

And as OG pointed out, a vague or even misleading sign is no excuse for ignorance to the rules. Ever seen a 35mph speed limit sign near a school, and wondered why you got pulled over for only doing 32mph?

Um,... I asked the sheriffs dept.(is it my fault a previous sheriff gave me inaccurate info?) the parks and rec. dept.(who also said there were no legal requirements for whip flags on 4x4 trucks on that land) and referenced the recreation.gov website http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do? ... rules.html . So Yes I did proper research. and was the yellow light flashing when you got pulled over for doing 32 in a 35?

[iaccocca]

Long story short (yeah, way tooo late for that)...

You need a flag in the dunes.

The deputy wasn't ignorant.

We are just trying to help.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

I officially apologize for the tone and demeanor of my original post. I was still upset about the situation and let too much of that emotion into the post.

The part that upset me was I DID make many phone calls and visited the parks and rec. dept. , the Sheriffs dept. and the police dept. to make sure if we would need anything to go out there for the day. And They all agreed that we would not need a whip flag or anything special to take the truck out there.
Since we do not get very many chances to plan little family adventures, getting out there and being told different kinda stung.

[Grumpy]

BLM rules prevail out there. And yes, it can be annoying to try to get them figured out! ANY vehicle running dunes should have a flag, rule or no rule. The Parks guys don't have say on that ground. Please don't think we're picking on you. Just trying to get you on the right page to make sure your next trip goes like it should

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

BLM rules prevail out there. And yes, it can be annoying to try to get them figured out! ANY vehicle running dunes should have a flag, rule or no rule. The Parks guys don't have say on that ground. Please don't think we're picking on you. Just trying to get you on the right page to make sure your next trip goes like it should

Thank you Grumpy. I did feel a bit attacked after that post , but I guess in ways my post seemed to some like an attack itself.
( hence my apology post)

We really need some centralized source we can go to for comprehensive and accurate information about recreational areas.

[White trash]

BLM rules prevail out there. And yes, it can be annoying to try to get them figured out! ANY vehicle running dunes should have a flag, rule or no rule. The Parks guys don't have say on that ground. Please don't think we're picking on you. Just trying to get you on the right page to make sure your next trip goes like it should

Thank you Grumpy. I did feel a bit attacked after that post , but I guess in ways my post seemed to some like an attack itself.
( hence my apology post)

We really need some centralized source we can go to for comprehensive and accurate information about recreational areas.

You're on it. If you want to know the straight poop ask here guaranteed you'll find your answer.

[Grumpy]

"We really need some centralized source we can go to for comprehensive and accurate information about recreational areas."


No such animal. You're gonna deal with BLM, USFS, DNR, and the rest of the alphabet soup agencies. Don't see it getting any better any time soon. Our hobby/sport is in the crosshairs, and the green controversy industry wants us gone. Start reading some of our posts in the Lands section.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Ok, now about these "flags", what are the requirements for flag height/ whip style/ color.

because what I am currently planning on using as a flag is a U.S. flag i have that is about 1 foot long and a couple banner style flags ( red and blue) just below that. and was planning on a temporary attachment to my 5' C.B. whip.


would that work or are they gonna be more persnickety than that?

[iaccocca]

All
such vehicles must have a whip mast
and a 6-inch x 12-inch red/orange safety
flag. Flags may be of pennant, triangle,
square, or rectangular shape. Safety flags
must be attached within 10 inches of the
tip of the whip mast with club or other
flags mounted below the safety flag or
on another whip. Masts must be a
minimum of 6 feet in height/length or
industry standard height/length.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Is there somewhere that sells these whips and flags near Richland?

[OldGreen]

Any of the motorcycle shops has them. Also a kids bicycle safety flag will work.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Oh and that part about the 6' height, is that 6' higher than the roof of the vehicle or just the whip has to be 6' long regardless of mounting point?

I have a 5' C.B. antenna attached to my diamond plate toolbox .

And I am pretty sure those 6' whips are allowed to be attached to the bumper
and if so then My 5' whip at it's mount point would be higher than a 6' whip attached to the bumper.

The point is supposed to be visibility right?

[OldGreen]

Yeah, that would be fine. I have never seen them measure one.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Not to beat a dead horse here but by strict definition OHV=



E. "off-highway motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle designed by the manufacturer
for operation exclusively off the highway or road and includes:
(1) "all-terrain vehicle", which means a motor vehicle fifty inches or less in
width, having an unladen dry weight of one thousand pounds or less, traveling on three
or more low-pressure tires and having a seat designed to be straddled by the operator
and handlebar-type steering control;
(2) "off-highway motorcycle", which means a motor vehicle traveling on not
more than two tires and having a seat designed to be straddled by the operator and that
has handlebar-type steering control;
(3) "snowmobile", which means a motor vehicle designed for travel on snow
or ice and steered and supported in whole or in part by skis, belts, cleats, runners or
low-pressure tires;
(4) "recreational off-highway vehicle", which means a motor vehicle
designed for travel on four or more non-highway tires, for recreational use by one or
more persons, and having:
(a) a steering wheel for steering control;
(b) non-straddle seating;
(c) maximum speed capability greater than thirty-five miles per hour;
(d) gross vehicle weight rating no greater than one thousand seven
hundred fifty pounds;
(e) less than eighty inches in overall width, exclusive of accessories;
(f) engine displacement of less than one thousand cubic centimeters;
and
(g) identification by means of a seventeen-character vehicle
identification number; or
(5) by rule of the department, any other vehicles that may enter the market
that fit the general profile of vehicles operated off the highway for recreational
purposes;

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/ohv/documents/Chapter66OHVAct.pdf

[OldGreen]

Only in New Mexico....