Flags are required at Juniper

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

here ya go http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.04.365

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Washington state definition for ya there notice the part about non street registered .

[Wrench]

Wally mart has plenty of flags. Cheapest place in town.

I take that back: you can find them for free all over Juniper, since they fell off someone elses ride.

You may have to reinforce them a little so they dont fall apart when banging around out there in the whoopdiedoos...

And give the po-po out there some slack. We want to be known as their friends. Not easy for you to dig up the rules, and is sure isnt easy for a County officer enforcing Federal rules either. Like you just found out, you can get different stories, depending on who you ask.

Bottom line, run the flag when venturing off the main road.

[White trash]

Washington state definition for ya there notice the part about non street registered .

Read the rules pdf Toby linked to earlier. Page 3 top right paragraph says anything capable of traveling offroad or cross country is an OHV. You can get wrapped up in all the stupid nomenclature if you like but its just easier to go buy a flag or steal one off your best friends kids bike the morning of a run like I did.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Funny part was I found and read the rules, but because BLM for some reason uses a different definition of OHV or ORV than Washington State's Official definition. that is what caused the confusion, and I am sure continues to cause confusion for others.

State managed federal land use rules should share the same definition as That state.

[Danny]

It's never going to get any more centralized than your computer. There are too many different area's to wheel, governed by way too many different organizations with different rules for the different governed areas.

Your best bet is to find out who governs the land, be it state, federal, county, BLM...etc and get the story from them. I"m sure that after you've been out there wheeling a while you'll figure out who governs what.

And it's not getting easier....but tuffer.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Washington state definition for ya there notice the part about non street registered .

Read the rules pdf Toby linked to earlier. Page 3 top right paragraph says anything capable of traveling offroad or cross country is an OHV. You can get wrapped up in all the stupid nomenclature if you like but its just easier to go buy a flag or steal one off your best friends kids bike the morning of a run like I did.

The flag thing is a non issue for me since I now have what I believe will be an acceptable setup. My only issue now is that I want the Washington State BLM, and Washington State to get on the same page about the definition of OHV and ORV to help others in the future avoid this confusion.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Here is another example of BLM's definition of ORV contradicting Washington State's official definition,... http://www.wsp.wa.gov/traveler/docs/equipmt/offroad_atv.pdf

So why can't BLM just say "all vehicles" if that is what they mean? Instead of using an acronym that Washington State and the federal government disagree with them on the definition of?

Are they purposely trying to confuse people?

And if so Why?

[White trash]

Are they purposely trying to confuse people?

And if so Why?

If the officer wrote you a ticket you'd know the answer.

[Grumpy]

Ain't been at this very long, huh? The replies your getting reflect the current state of affairs all over the country. The feds, and each state, have their own way of looking at things. Yup, really sux, and yes, it's being attacked by a lot of folks. I spent a good amount of time this winter helping shape legislation aimed at curing some of this, but, sadly, it got higraded and now may not go the way we wanted.

[iaccocca]

Using all caps on the internet is rude.

YOU NEED A FLAG AT JUNIPER!!!


That is all.

[tobyw]

Um,... I asked the sheriffs dept.(is it my fault a previous sheriff gave me inaccurate info?) the parks and rec. dept.(who also said there were no legal requirements for whip flags on 4x4 trucks on that land) and referenced the recreation.gov website http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/nrrsgeneralrules.html . So Yes I did proper research. and was the yellow light flashing when you got pulled over for doing 32 in a 35?

Just to be clear, I have never been pulled over in a school zone because I know what the rules are, as set forth by those who developed them...

As I mentioned in my first reply, and others have since, had you done the proper research on the subject in the first place you would have known that it was BLM land, and as such BLM rules/regulations apply. The links I posted answer every question you have asked, right down to the flag dimensions.

For the record, when I'm looking into rules/regulations for a given area, my first step is to find out WHO operates the area. A prime example is the split between DNR and NFS land, wherein one requires the Discover pass, and the other doesn't, but you can weave your way in/out of both zones on the very same road...

Again, as others have mentioned, I hope you are not taking offense to any of the replies you have received here. We are all unified in the quest for responsible outdoor recreation, and have worked very hard to clean up and maintain the image that the off-road community exudes. Coming to a public forum to express your displeasure for someone asking you to adhere to the rules is, well, let's just say it's not helping the cause. I would sincerely hope that the next thread you start has a little different taste to it. Happy trails.

[Wrench]

Um,... I asked the sheriffs dept.(is it my fault a previous sheriff gave me inaccurate info?) the parks and rec. dept.(who also said there were no legal requirements for whip flags on 4x4 trucks on that land) and referenced the recreation.gov website http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/nrrsgeneralrules.html . So Yes I did proper research. and was the yellow light flashing when you got pulled over for doing 32 in a 35?

Just to be clear, I have never been pulled over in a school zone because I know what the rules are, as set forth by those who developed them...

As I mentioned in my first reply, and others have since, had you done the proper research on the subject in the first place you would have known that it was BLM land, and as such BLM rules/regulations apply. The links I posted answer every question you have asked, right down to the flag dimensions.

For the record, when I'm looking into rules/regulations for a given area, my first step is to find out WHO operates the area. A prime example is the split between DNR and NFS land, wherein one requires the Discover pass, and the other doesn't, but you can weave your way in/out of both zones on the very same road...

Again, as others have mentioned, I hope you are not taking offense to any of the replies you have received here. We are all unified in the quest for responsible outdoor recreation, and have worked very hard to clean up and maintain the image that the off-road community exudes. Coming to a public forum to express your displeasure for someone asking you to adhere to the rules is, well, let's just say it's not helping the cause. I would sincerely hope that the next thread you start has a little different taste to it. Happy trails.

[Danny]

Wonderful way to wrap up this thread, Toby....Done and done!!!

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Um,... I asked the sheriffs dept.(is it my fault a previous sheriff gave me inaccurate info?) the parks and rec. dept.(who also said there were no legal requirements for whip flags on 4x4 trucks on that land) and referenced the recreation.gov website http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/nrrsgeneralrules.html . So Yes I did proper research. and was the yellow light flashing when you got pulled over for doing 32 in a 35?

Just to be clear, I have never been pulled over in a school zone because I know what the rules are, as set forth by those who developed them...

As I mentioned in my first reply, and others have since, had you done the proper research on the subject in the first place you would have known that it was BLM land, and as such BLM rules/regulations apply. The links I posted answer every question you have asked, right down to the flag dimensions.

For the record, when I'm looking into rules/regulations for a given area, my first step is to find out WHO operates the area. A prime example is the split between DNR and NFS land, wherein one requires the Discover pass, and the other doesn't, but you can weave your way in/out of both zones on the very same road...

Again, as others have mentioned, I hope you are not taking offense to any of the replies you have received here. We are all unified in the quest for responsible outdoor recreation, and have worked very hard to clean up and maintain the image that the off-road community exudes. Coming to a public forum to express your displeasure for someone asking you to adhere to the rules is, well, let's just say it's not helping the cause. I would sincerely hope that the next thread you start has a little different taste to it. Happy trails.

Seriously, Do you still think this was about the flag? No ,it is about availability of information. When someone goes to the Sheriffs office for information about an area that the Sheriffs dept. is responsible for monitoring and enforcing and receives inaccurate information from them, that is a disservice.

hmm... Recreation area on federal government land? Should RECREATION.GOV maybe know something about that?

Please Do not attack my research methods just because you have been going to the place for years and it's rules are now second nature to you.

If you are hellbent on taking offense at my post, go ahead, but that was not how it was intended.

My method used is what a majority of Americans would do when trying to get information, 2 sources that absolutely SHOULD know. And neither one of them could even tell me it was BLM land because I ASKED the Sheriffs office who owned or was responsible for it and the response I got was "I am not sure".

A simple sign with a few more words on it would solve all that.

Peace.

[tobyw]

Seriously, Do you still think this was about the flag?

Isn’t that the point of your post? I realize you have taken it way off topic with your general disdain for authority, but… yeah, it was about the flag…

No ,it is about availability of information.

Plenty of information available if you look in the right place, ask the right questions, and understand what a reasonable response is to those questions. More on that later…

When someone goes to the Sheriffs office for information about an area that the Sheriffs dept. is responsible for monitoring and enforcing and receives inaccurate information from them, that is a disservice.

I cannot dispute this, however, it does NOT alleviate your duty to know, understand, and abide by the rules/regulations. Just because whomever you talked to at the Sheriff’s department didn’t know, certainly (and obviously) does not mean those rules/regulations don’t exist… I highly doubt that every LEO out there fully comprehends the vehicle codes regarding lift heights, exposed tire widths, etc. But, I’m sure you’ll find one that does if you run around without proper tire coverage long enough. And I’m damn sure you’ll be paying that ticket if you come to traffic court and tell the Judge that Officer Johnson didn’t know the regulations when you asked him a few weeks prior, so you figured it was OK to run your 15.50 Swamper TSL’s without fender flares…

hmm... Recreation area on federal government land? Should RECREATION.GOV maybe know something about that?

Not necessarily. This is a case in point, and I’m sure there are literally hundreds of others just like it. You seem like a relatively intelligent guy, so I’m sure you understand some of the shortcomings and limitations of our mighty Federal Government?

Please Do not attack my research methods just because you have been going to the place for years and it's rules are now second nature to you.

I have been to Juniper 2, maybe 3 times? Regardless, I don’t take any set of rules as second nature, as they are constantly subject to change. I’m sure you have heard the one about what it means to ‘assume’ something…

If you are hellbent on taking offense at my post, go ahead, but that was not how it was intended.

I don’t take offense to anything on the internet, trust me. But, I do not appreciate someone from within the off-road community coming to a public forum to sound off about something when they were clearly in the wrong. However that wrong may have come to be… Because it is the internet, and it is a public forum, the information is out there for anyone to see, and use as they see fit. Forever. Don’t for a single second think that some environmental extremist won’t take this type of rant, even if it’s out of context, and twist it into a very powerful tool to use against the responsible recreation we are trying to support and maintain.

My method used is what a majority of Americans would do when trying to get information, 2 sources that absolutely SHOULD know. And neither one of them could even tell me it was BLM land because I ASKED the Sheriffs office who owned or was responsible for it and the response I got was "I am not sure".

OK my friend, here is the epitome of what I’ve been getting at since my initial reply… You went to multiple sources, bravo. However, as you clearly stated, none of them knew the answer, yet you rested on your laurels, ended your research there, and made some assumptions based on what you think an ORV should be. Sadly, I have to agree with you; this is exactly what the majority of Americans do these days. In my opinion, research should conclude in decisive information if it’s information that is to be acted upon. Yeah, there is a lot of lab type research that ends in more questions than answers, but this isn’t that sort of research... Did it ever cross your mind to come to our forum and ask any of your questions? Or read any of the run reports about the area you are thinking of heading to? Pretty pictures of rigs, all with dune flags, might at least raise a flag, pun intended…

A simple sign with a few more words on it would solve all that.

Again, I cannot dispute this. But, again, signage (or lack thereof) does NOT abscond you from having the knowledge. I’m sure you are familiar with the old adage “…ignorance is bliss…â€

[White trash]

Toby you must be a secretary to type that much in a reasonable amount of time.





So how can we contain this issue so it isn't a regular occurrence? I realize that for juniper its a simple matter of amending the rules sign with the blm's blessing but what about for other areas?

Perhaps a sticky with all the basic requirements for all local areas?

[Wrench]

A simple sign with a few more words on it would solve all that.

Peace.

I am very impatiently waiting the day there is a phone app that pinpoints your current location and lists all the laws that apply there...

Then, of course, it will probably cause people to realize how overbearing the government is and sway them to do something about it. So I am sure the government has no interest in doing this...

[Wrench]

Perhaps a sticky with all the basic requirements for all local areas?

Yes!!

We could have a section of our forum dedicated to that. If the members work together to find regulations and update threads, we could easily come up with informational threads where the first post is constantly updated with a summary of regulations and a map for that area.

I would also assume that if this works and is public, it will probably create a whole lot more traffic on this site, since not many others are doing this.

[OldGreen]

Doesn't Ceg's site have such a thing already? I thought it did anyway.

At any rate, complaining about the way that the government disseminates information is useless.

The only way to truly know what the rules are is to find out who owns the land and then get a copy of their rules.

Juniper = BLM = the end of the story. The OP looked in the wrong place and talked to the wrong people. There is a sign that says "Access to Public Lands" with a BLM logo on it. Once you go by that sign, you are on their terms.

If the LEO gives you a ticket and you are in the right, then happily take it to court armed with the statute and get it reversed. Alternately, if what he is asking isn't out of line, then simply comply. It is likely that he is just trying to keep you safe.

[tobyw]

Toby you must be a secretary to type that much in a reasonable amount of time.

I can hunt-n-peck with the best of 'em

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Seriously, Do you still think this was about the flag?

Isn’t that the point of your post? I realize you have taken it way off topic with your general disdain for authority, but… yeah, it was about the flag…

No ,it is about availability of information.

Plenty of information available if you look in the right place, ask the right questions, and understand what a reasonable response is to those questions. More on that later…

When someone goes to the Sheriffs office for information about an area that the Sheriffs dept. is responsible for monitoring and enforcing and receives inaccurate information from them, that is a disservice.

I cannot dispute this, however, it does NOT alleviate your duty to know, understand, and abide by the rules/regulations. Just because whomever you talked to at the Sheriff’s department didn’t know, certainly (and obviously) does not mean those rules/regulations don’t exist… I highly doubt that every LEO out there fully comprehends the vehicle codes regarding lift heights, exposed tire widths, etc. But, I’m sure you’ll find one that does if you run around without proper tire coverage long enough. And I’m damn sure you’ll be paying that ticket if you come to traffic court and tell the Judge that Officer Johnson didn’t know the regulations when you asked him a few weeks prior, so you figured it was OK to run your 15.50 Swamper TSL’s without fender flares…

hmm... Recreation area on federal government land? Should RECREATION.GOV maybe know something about that?

Not necessarily. This is a case in point, and I’m sure there are literally hundreds of others just like it. You seem like a relatively intelligent guy, so I’m sure you understand some of the shortcomings and limitations of our mighty Federal Government?

Please Do not attack my research methods just because you have been going to the place for years and it's rules are now second nature to you.

I have been to Juniper 2, maybe 3 times? Regardless, I don’t take any set of rules as second nature, as they are constantly subject to change. I’m sure you have heard the one about what it means to ‘assume’ something…

If you are hellbent on taking offense at my post, go ahead, but that was not how it was intended.

I don’t take offense to anything on the internet, trust me. But, I do not appreciate someone from within the off-road community coming to a public forum to sound off about something when they were clearly in the wrong. However that wrong may have come to be… Because it is the internet, and it is a public forum, the information is out there for anyone to see, and use as they see fit. Forever. Don’t for a single second think that some environmental extremist won’t take this type of rant, even if it’s out of context, and twist it into a very powerful tool to use against the responsible recreation we are trying to support and maintain.

My method used is what a majority of Americans would do when trying to get information, 2 sources that absolutely SHOULD know. And neither one of them could even tell me it was BLM land because I ASKED the Sheriffs office who owned or was responsible for it and the response I got was "I am not sure".

OK my friend, here is the epitome of what I’ve been getting at since my initial reply… You went to multiple sources, bravo. However, as you clearly stated, none of them knew the answer, yet you rested on your laurels, ended your research there, and made some assumptions based on what you think an ORV should be. Sadly, I have to agree with you; this is exactly what the majority of Americans do these days. In my opinion, research should conclude in decisive information if it’s information that is to be acted upon. Yeah, there is a lot of lab type research that ends in more questions than answers, but this isn’t that sort of research... Did it ever cross your mind to come to our forum and ask any of your questions? Or read any of the run reports about the area you are thinking of heading to? Pretty pictures of rigs, all with dune flags, might at least raise a flag, pun intended…

It sounds as if you Assume,... that I did not, problem is , I did look up yours and other peoples pictures from juniper and many of the trucks do not have flags though the majority did. Oh and assumed what an orv should be? NO I read the automobile industry's definition and Washington State's official definition, look back through my posts you will find the links there.

A simple sign with a few more words on it would solve all that.

Again, I cannot dispute this. But, again, signage (or lack thereof) does NOT abscond you from having the knowledge. I’m sure you are familiar with the old adage “…ignorance is bliss…â€

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Toby you must be a secretary to type that much in a reasonable amount of time.





So how can we contain this issue so it isn't a regular occurrence? I realize that for juniper its a simple matter of amending the rules sign with the blm's blessing but what about for other areas?

Perhaps a sticky with all the basic requirements for all local areas?

I think the sticky section for regulations would be awesome, that was actually why a came to this site in the first place, hoping to find something like that.

[iaccocca]

Which sheriff's department did you call? Benton, Franklin, Walla Walla?
Which parks and recreation did you call that said you do not need a flag? Richland? Kennewick, Pasco? Kalotus?
recreation.gov that you sited only lists Juniper as a wilderness area; i.e. no vehicles allowed... no bikes, not even a pull cart.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Which sheriff's department did you call? Benton, Franklin, Walla Walla?
Which parks and recreation did you call that said you do not need a flag? Richland? Kennewick, Pasco? Kalotus?
recreation.gov that you sited only lists Juniper as a wilderness area; i.e. no vehicles allowed... no bikes, not even a pull cart.

Franklin since I believe the dunes are in Franklin county. And I actually went in to ask. I like talking to people in person.

I went in to the Richland parks and rec. while I was in the area and they called the Pasco one to ask. When I was given a FIRM "No they are not required"

and here is the rec.gov part I was referencing "Vehicle Operation
Drivers must obey all traffic signs and operate their vehicles in accordance with POSTED regulations, and applicable Federal, State and local laws.
Vehicles must be parked in designated areas only."
http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/nrrsgeneralrules.html

Then if you read this from the Washington State Patrol http://www.wsp.wa.gov/traveler/docs/equipmt/offroad_atv.pdf

They help set Washington State's definition of ORV. And believe you me you do not wanna argue to a highway Patrol that my truck is an OHV or ORV because they will set ya straight. OHV OFF highway vehicle.



Then keep that in mind while reading the POSTED regulations out there and you might see what I mean about the trouble the acronym on the sign caused.

And there is a Washington State requirement that in such areas regulations must be posted to be enforceable by law enforcement.

And for the record I have nothing against law enforcement. I wish there was alot more enforcement of already existing laws instead of just making new ones every 5 minutes. Count the people you see in 1 day not using turn signals or "Indicators" to change lanes or even actually turn a corner,... I counted 48 in 17 miles of driving ...Astounding. And that is a law every police officer is required to know and supposed to enforce.
Just sayin!