Flags are required at Juniper

[tobyw]

So is there some magical force in the world that I am missing that tells people that This is the site to go to for that information? Because It seems to me that if you want information about something you go to the logical source ,... want information about driving laws= go to the DMV for a drivers manual,... want to know about the Whitehouse go to whitehouse.gov

I think you are on the right track here... Taking it a couple steps further, if you want to know about an outdoor recreation area, and more specifically what it means to take your four wheel drive vehicle there, maybe look toward an online four wheel drive oriented forum that is local to the area?

[iaccocca]

Which sheriff's department did you call? Benton, Franklin, Walla Walla?
Which parks and recreation did you call that said you do not need a flag? Richland? Kennewick, Pasco? Kalotus?
recreation.gov that you sited only lists Juniper as a wilderness area; i.e. no vehicles allowed... no bikes, not even a pull cart.

Franklin since I believe the dunes are in Franklin county. And I actually went in to ask. I like talking to people in person.

I went in to the Richland parks and rec. while I was in the area and they called the Pasco one to ask. When I was given a FIRM "No they are not required"

and here is the rec.gov part I was referencing "Vehicle Operation
Drivers must obey all traffic signs and operate their vehicles in accordance with posted regulations, and applicable Federal, State and local laws.
Vehicles must be parked in designated areas only."
http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/nrrsgeneralrules.html

I am shocked, and I mean I am really SHOCKED that the Franklin County Sheriff's department did not know and communicate the rules. You have a real grievance with them and should take it up with them.
Parks and recreations not knowing about an area that is not a park... they should have given you the times for the city pool and sent you to a real source.
Your reading of the .gov sight was shortsighted... you read the generic description for ALL parks. The Juniper only section would have told you no mechanical vehicles. That is because it only covers the wilderness area not the ORV /OHV area.

http://www.recreation.gov/unifSearchResults.do?topTabIndex=Search

You have discovered a real source of information here. Make use of it and be happy.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

I was shocked too!

That is why my reaction to the Deputy sending me away was kinda harsh.

And do you really think I would get anywhere complaining about it to them?

Besides what would be the point, It's not gonna change the past.

[iaccocca]

It could change the future for the next wheeler that does due diligence.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Btw ,.. Do you think BLM would agree to let me put a few loaner flags out there? Kinda like the life jackets at Two Rivers park?

Just like a white pvc tube sunk in the ground somewhere it would not be in the way that I could put a few flags in for newbies to the area to use and hopefully return for others to use. So that others don't get turned away like I was.

just a thought,....

Ace hardware has the flags for like $7, I could afford to put a few out there once in awhile.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

It could change the future for the next wheeler that does due diligence.

I doubt it, I think I caught a glitch or something, I am sure they are normally much better about it.

[Grumpy]

I don't mean to be a jerk, but why did you even ask Richland about Juniper??

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

I don't mean to be a jerk, but why did you even ask Richland about Juniper??

I guess it was naive of me to think that the parks and "recreation" dept might have their act together? And be able to use this vast resource called the internet to centralize and organize information related to recreation in the area.


Probably.

P.S. I was raised mostly by my (at the time 87 yr old gramps sayin, " If ya can't do it right don't offer to do it")

[Grumpy]

Did I mention "not gonna happen any time soon" at some point? Like Toby said, use the forums that are specific to the area, the PNW. You have this site, Northwest Wheelers, and Pacific Northwest 4 Wheel Drive Association. I would think between those you'd find all you need...Your idea of "centralized information" simply ain't gonna happen with the .gov agencies involved. They each have their own little world, and will do what they have to to protect their turf. Get used to it for now. Like I said, there's a bunch of folks out there working to get some uniformity, but it's likely to take years, if it happens. I told you you need to start playing in our Land Use section. Do that, and you'll find what's going on in spades!

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

Did I mention "not gonna happen any time soon" at some point? Like Toby said, use the forums that are specific to the area, the PNW. You have this site, Northwest Wheelers, and Pacific Northwest 4 Wheel Drive Association. I would think between those you'd find all you need...Your idea of "centralized information" simply ain't gonna happen with the .gov agencies involved. They each have their own little world, and will do what they have to to protect their turf. Get used to it for now. Like I said, there's a bunch of folks out there working to get some uniformity, but it's likely to take years, if it happens. I told you you need to start playing in our Land Use section. Do that, and you'll find what's going on in spades!

Believe me " I understand where you are coming from,... with that said,.. I disagree.

If you are willing to give up freedom for safety you deserve neither!
Know that phrase?

Same idea as " get used to it".

We as Americans cannot afford to " get used to it" .
Same thing the government tells people when they are scared the people might win.
And I am sure you have had to deal with plenty of red tape and it seems like a never ending battle.

It seemed the same to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, add etc....

But perseverance in the face of adversity is What America Was Meant to Stand For.

Keep up the good fight.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

It seems every one here assumes I have not read much here.

Just for the record, I Read THE WHOLE forum before I made my first post. Admittedly It was speed reading, and not all was retained ( a certain yellow jeep without a flag in juniper Anyone, Anyone,... Bueller,...

And I am Quite aware of the land use battles, Green hippy Hitlers etc...

Also not to brag but just for the record, I have a MENSA certified xxx IQ and What has been described by MENSA northwest as a Very uncanny knack for problem solving. MENSA newsletter June 8 1998


Just Sayin.

Quit MENSA in 2004 due to irreconcilable differences in opinion on the " Black IQ Test affair". (for the(supposed) top .5% of IQ's in america Those in high position there are very bigoted and single minded.)

So please do not pigeon hole me into some Statistic or another without really knowing me.

I really try not to take myself too seriously, so if you see me making jokes on what seems inappropriate subject matter for joking, it is just me reminding myself that " If you take life too seriously, you will never live through it."

[Grumpy]

What I said was "get used to it FOR NOW"! Don't even get the idea that those of us involved in fighting for access to public lands are going to roll over and die! For me, it ain't gonna happen. I'm likely close to the end of my time of being able to get out and really flog a rig, for both age and health reasons. But I will be involved as long as I realistically can in some form.

So, if you plan on being a part of the hobby, it will behoove you to KNOW what agencies control what areas, get familiar with how they think, and work within the strictures we now have. Change does seem to be in the air, but it will take time!

[White trash]

I've got a mensa certified IQ of like 13. There is a reason I'm a truck driver not a nuclear engineer. But my common sense and ability to use it is un measurable and that common sense has told me to run a flag at the dunes so I lessen my chances of an accident with another OHV.


Dave, hang waiting for the state to make a centralized rules list. We can do a simple one here.

[Grumpy]

Pretty much everything is in here somewhere. May need someone smarter'n me to make sense of it, though.

[Wrench]

I've got a mensa certified IQ of like 13. There is a reason I'm a truck driver not a nuclear engineer. But my common sense and ability to use it is un measurable and that common sense has told me to run a flag at the dunes so I lessen my chances of an accident with another OHV.


Dave, hang waiting for the state to make a centralized rules list. We can do a simple one here.

Troof!

And if we leave it up to the Goobermint to make/openly post the rules before we try to stay safe, we are in a world of hurt!

OP: Why did your amazing IQ not have enough common sense to run the flag anyway?? Hey, you brought the IQ thing up; cant expect it not to get poked fun at. And dont assume you are the only genius around here...

[Grumpy]

If I posted my IQ, it'd ruin my image

[iaccocca]

If I posted my IQ, it'd ruin my image

Nope, just confirm some suspicions.

[Grumpy]

Well, it is bigger than my shoe size...

[White trash]

:lol2 Well, it is bigger than my shoe size...

But Dave, you have freakishly small feet.

[OldGreen]

Simple Requirements for Street Legal Vehicles on trails and designated off-hiway areas:

DNR, DFW, State Parks: Discover Pass

National Forest: NW Forest Pass if you are parking or camping in certain areas. Yes, there is a list on the FS website. At this point, they are NOT required on the trail.

BLM: Dune Flags if you are off of a designated road.

ALL and COMMON SENSE (Not necessarily a law, but don't be stupid): Spark arresters/non-straight through muffler (NO CHERRY BOMBS, GLASS PACKS or OPEN HEADERS), Fire Extinguishers, shovels, First Aid Kits, Communications Devices, Food/Water, Recovery Gear, bucket/ice chest for fighting a fire, basic hand tools, jack, spare tire, air compressor, jumper cables, a lighter/knife/etc, a good sense of humor, some cash, and COMMON SENSE.

Don't forget the more important thing to bring: ANOTHER VEHICLE. Don't wheel alone. You might end up having to cut your arm off with a swiss army knife.

Also, this is in addition to actually being street legal.

Be aware that some/many trails cross more than one land owner's property. . .so have all the stuff you need.

[iaccocca]

a good sense of humor, some cash, and COMMON SENSE.

But my wife only lets me have two of these things.

But, my sense of humor aside... Amen.

Some of those items are even listed in the bylaws as required on runs... gotta go find my fire extinguisher.

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

What I said was "get used to it FOR NOW"! Don't even get the idea that those of us involved in fighting for access to public lands are going to roll over and die! For me, it ain't gonna happen. I'm likely close to the end of my time of being able to get out and really flog a rig, for both age and health reasons. But I will be involved as long as I realistically can in some form.

So, if you plan on being a part of the hobby, it will behoove you to KNOW what agencies control what areas, get familiar with how they think, and work within the strictures we know have. Change does seem to be in the air, but it will take time!

Sorry if it seemed like I was saying YOU were going to roll over on the campaign, I have worked on quite a few positive action campaigns in various fields. I hear stuff like " it will never happen" or " you have no chance" or "not in our lifetime". And it just seems like defeatist attitudes.

And it will take "some" time, but I am willing to bet against years ( at least the plural form.)

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

I have (what may at first seem to be) a stupid question,...


About mounting points and angles for the flags.

I see alot of people with the flag mounted to the rear of the vehicle.

Doesn't that kinda defeat the point of the flag?

Since when you are cresting a dune or something similar your jeep will be at such an angle that a 6' flag on the far back would not be visible until the front end is already over the crest.

My chosen mounting point for mine is the front bumper with about a 20 degree forward lean to maximize time the flag is visible when cresting.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

[DannyBoyFromWashington]

I just thought about something ( i know "scary" right) .

1 good point this debate has had without even trying,,,....

Next time someone comes to this site and searches for " flags at juniper dunes " They Will find something now.

[White trash]

I have (what may at first seem to be) a stupid question,...


About mounting points and angles for the flags.

I see alot of people with the flag mounted to the rear of the vehicle.

Doesn't that kinda defeat the point of the flag?

Since when you are cresting a dune or something similar your jeep will be at such an angle that a 6' flag on the far back would not be visible until the front end is already over the crest.

My chosen mounting point for mine is the front bumper with about a 20 degree forward lean to maximize time the flag is visible when cresting.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Yea it makes sense its the same effect that is used on cb antennaes mounted to semis. You are severely over thinking this matter though. Which in hindsight is not surprising.