XJ conversion

[Wrench]

I dont think anyone here is trying to personally attack you, just try to point out things to lead you in the right direction. There are plenty of experienced folks here who have done or gone through the planning of projects like this and have every right to share so you dont hit the pitfalls.

Without all the details, your proposed setup leaves us wondering how you will dramatically reinforce the frame, axles, drivelines, steering setup, and suspension to properly handle the extra weight and torque. Those that have been wheelin' for some time know that it sucks royal donkey d!(k when we are miles from nowhere and someone has a contraption that falls apart on the trails, and noone has parts or tools to fix. I know that sure isnt MY idea of fun.

What are you building this rig for?

Do you realize how many hours of wrenching this will take before actual offroad adventures take place?

Do you realize the amount of time you will consume using trial and error to make this thing absolutely trail-worthy?

Do you realize that you could take your current 4.0 setup and have a rockin' rig with minimal money/time/effort? And that there are plenty of parts to share if you break?

I am all for doing stuff yourself just because you can, but this whole project just doesnt make sense.

Of course, if I ever start my hairbrained flattie project I have been thinking about, I'll get the same head-scratching questions...

[Ace_Cherokee]

Found a guy that is rebuilding a 47RH for me in Coeur d’Alene for $700 with a 12 month warranty. I will take the motor out this weekend and prep the engine bay and tranny tube.

[Ace_Cherokee]

Don't take the haters to seriously. They are just jealous. keep at it and keep us updated. If I had the money and know-how I'd be doing the same thing. I love diesels. I tried to stuff a diesel into my camaro "because I wanted to." The plan ended up not working due to the turbo design/mount. But if I ever get my hands ona 6.5 with a blower its going to be in my camaro in a heart beat.

I have no idea what I am doing. Just some research online and a want and drive to do it.

[Ace_Cherokee]

I dont think anyone here is trying to personally attack you, just try to point out things to lead you in the right direction. There are plenty of experienced folks here who have done or gone through the planning of projects like this and have every right to share so you dont hit the pitfalls.

Without all the details, your proposed setup leaves us wondering how you will dramatically reinforce the frame, axles, drivelines, steering setup, and suspension to properly handle the extra weight and torque. Those that have been wheelin' for some time know that it sucks royal donkey d!(k when we are miles from nowhere and someone has a contraption that falls apart on the trails, and noone has parts or tools to fix. I know that sure isnt MY idea of fun.

What are you building this rig for?

Do you realize how many hours of wrenching this will take before actual offroad adventures take place?

Do you realize the amount of time you will consume using trial and error to make this thing absolutely trail-worthy?

Do you realize that you could take your current 4.0 setup and have a rockin' rig with minimal money/time/effort? And that there are plenty of parts to share if you break?

I am all for doing stuff yourself just because you can, but this whole project just doesnt make sense.

Of course, if I ever start my hairbrained flattie project I have been thinking about, I'll get the same head-scratching questions...

What are you building this rig for? for me, for the experience, for fun and to be different. I am young and single. Might as well do it.

Do you realize how many hours of wrenching this will take before actual offroad adventures take place? not a problem. I enjoy the wrench time and I hardly ever wheel any more any way

Do you realize the amount of time you will consume using trial and error to make this thing absolutely trail-worthy? my favorite kind of learning when it comes to this. I am not worried about it making something that will be truely awesome coming out of the gate

Do you realize that you could take your current 4.0 setup and have a rockin' rig with minimal money/time/effort? And that there are plenty of parts to share if you break? I am not a big fan of the 4.0 for some reason and yes I know I could do a nice rebuild on it. Hence the reason I would like to sell it to a home that would be happy to do so. I might even rebuild it myself and sell it

[iaccocca]

Holy crap! This is the hottest thread on our forum.

We will all be bragging on how our buddy did this when it is in JP magazine.

[Ace_Cherokee]

Sorry all for being a little testy yesterday. It turned out to be a bad day for me and I have not had one of those in a long time. Hey gotta have some rain to enjoy the sunny days yea?

[Laquandt]

I've been there with my Toyota, everyone said 22r's best motor ever! Ya I guess not for me I blow up 4. So I droped a chev SB in it loved every minute I was in on or under that rig then I got married lol. Sold it cause I got tired of throwing money I didn't have at it. But it was a adventure, hope this goes good for ya. Hope to catch ya on the trail sometime.

[Grumpy]

Yup, we're just being us Try being an IH guy around these clowns

[bobracing]

I'm interested to see how this comes out.
Actually mostly interested to see how it will fit under the hood, they are TALL engines and with the turbo hanging off the side it will be a real adventure.
Is it just a 4BT or 4BTA? Wow just thinking the radiator is going to be huge, then add the a/c condenser and intercooler (not necessary but free power), cooling might be a bit of a challenge too.

Good luck and keep the pictures coming.
I like the fabrication threads, always seem to learn something from them.

[Ace_Cherokee]

I'm interested to see how this comes out.
Actually mostly interested to see how it will fit under the hood, they are TALL engines and with the turbo hanging off the side it will be a real adventure.
Is it just a 4BT or 4BTA? Wow just thinking the radiator is going to be huge, then add the a/c condenser and intercooler (not necessary but free power), cooling might be a bit of a challenge too.

Good luck and keep the pictures coming.
I like the fabrication threads, always seem to learn something from them.

some guys from the other site said the stock radiator will work just fine.
I need to figure out what I am going to do with the intercooler.
I am going to stick it as far back as possible and most likely put a cowel hood on.

[Chrispy]

I've been there with my Toyota, everyone said 22r's best motor ever! Ya I guess not for me I blow up 4. So I droped a chev SB in it loved every minute I was in on or under that rig then I got married lol. Sold it cause I got tired of throwing money I didn't have at it. But it was a adventure, hope this goes good for ya. Hope to catch ya on the trail sometime.

I know what your talking about with 22re. I did the same put a sbc 350 in my Toyota. Best thang I ever did.

[OldGreen]

If I was going to do this, I would do a few things:

1. strip out the drivetrain, measure for the hole and plate everything.
2. Then gusset the places you plated.
3. Then build a structural space frame/roll cage. Doesn't have to be complex. Luckily, the same shapes that absorb impact are good at resisting torque as well.
4. Stretch the front end out a few". It is truly amazing what just a little front end stretch will do for stability. Since you said you were going to do a long arm set-up anyway, just do it FIRST. You will need to have an engine cage since you don't have frame rails, so mounting the coils and/or coilovers farther forward wouldn't be a big deal.
5. Trussed front axle of the D44 variety or a stock D60. The 44 would likely be fine since you said you won't wheel it much. Stock gearing like 3.73 would work just fine. ..
6. I'd stop believing what I read on the internet. . .the stock radiator needs to be upgraded.
7. Match the rearend to the front (14 bolt, D60, etc.)
8. Measure everything 22 times.

Only then would I consider even test fitting a 700lb motor in an XJ. I don't know a lot about diesels, but I do know a lot about Jeeps, torque, and weight. I think that if you strengthen everything and really take your time with the execution, you could end up with a nice example...especially if you use french fry oil as fuel. . .you'll smell delicious.

Now the real advice:
If you don't expect to have something nice "out of the gate" then you are aiming for mediocrity. No bueno man. Do it right the first time. By your own admission, you like to wrench more than you like to wheel. Take it from a guy who used to spend ALL of his time half assing things together just to get on the trail: TAKE the time you have. Go slow. Do it as close to right as you can, then redo it until it works the way you want it to. Only go off fully cocked.

In the end, if everyone but you hates it, but you love it. . .then you accomplished your goal.

[iaccocca]

...especially if you use french fry oil as fuel. . .you'll smell delicious.

I'd follow that down the trail.

[Ace_Cherokee]

If I was going to do this, I would do a few things:

1. strip out the drivetrain, measure for the hole and plate everything.
2. Then gusset the places you plated.
3. Then build a structural space frame/roll cage. Doesn't have to be complex. Luckily, the same shapes that absorb impact are good at resisting torque as well.
4. Stretch the front end out a few". It is truly amazing what just a little front end stretch will do for stability. Since you said you were going to do a long arm set-up anyway, just do it FIRST. You will need to have an engine cage since you don't have frame rails, so mounting the coils and/or coilovers farther forward wouldn't be a big deal.
5. Trussed front axle of the D44 variety or a stock D60. The 44 would likely be fine since you said you won't wheel it much. Stock gearing like 3.73 would work just fine. ..
6. I'd stop believing what I read on the internet. . .the stock radiator needs to be upgraded.
7. Match the rearend to the front (14 bolt, D60, etc.)
8. Measure everything 22 times.

Only then would I consider even test fitting a 700lb motor in an XJ. I don't know a lot about diesels, but I do know a lot about Jeeps, torque, and weight. I think that if you strengthen everything and really take your time with the execution, you could end up with a nice example...especially if you use french fry oil as fuel. . .you'll smell delicious.

Now the real advice:
If you don't expect to have something nice "out of the gate" then you are aiming for mediocrity. No bueno man. Do it right the first time. By your own admission, you like to wrench more than you like to wheel. Take it from a guy who used to spend ALL of his time half assing things together just to get on the trail: TAKE the time you have. Go slow. Do it as close to right as you can, then redo it until it works the way you want it to. Only go off fully cocked.

In the end, if everyone but you hates it, but you love it. . .then you accomplished your goal.

I agree with you on most if not all of that.
By out of the gate, I ment there will be kniks, as will all projects.
Not sure how I would extend the front end or what that will do, can you tell me why?
I would love to run on veggie oil! that would be fun.
I have taken into consideration the d44 and the 9" today.

[OldGreen]

If you stretch the front end, it does the same thing for weight distribution as moving the engine farther back in the chassis: It puts more of the engine's weight on the rear wheels. Longer wheelbase also helps with weight transfer when you are climbing, but that isn't a big consideration anyway.

[bobracing]

Not sure how I would extend the front end or what that will do, can you tell me why?

I'm going to guess the same way you build a racecar. Cut the front off and use rect. box tubing, truss it with the front rollcage (whole rig truss basically) and use a coilover shock mounted off the "cage".
Check out Those Guys Rod and Custom for a Internal/External Custom Cage
.
This will allow the front to stretch as far as you would like and if you watch trucks, they showed one way to stretch a fender using two fender. I'm sure it's somewhere on the web.

[79chevy39.5's]

on the cherokee you can slip box tube into the unibody rails and plug weld that in then when you use plates to strengthen the rails use that as you fishplate this will give you much stronger metal to make motor mounts (beefy ones to combat the 4bt) as well as coilover mounts (said you had coilovers) just make sure you connect it to the rest of the rig

[Wrench]

I dont know about your Cherokee, but on mine, all the sheet metal/unibody/frame was galvanized under the paint. Total PITA to weld on properly.

I wasnt saying the project cant be done, I just think that your plan to wing-it is gonna cost you way more than you think.

Take OG's advice and do it right the first time.

Here, let me just give you an example: you "winged it" with your current setup and had issues out at Juniper with your bodywork slicing your tires when we were playing 3-ball a few months ago. This is the kind of thing/cost I am talking about. Or is it your position that you enjoy doing this kind of thing and learning the hard way?

If so, carry on! Let the cameras roll...

[Ace_Cherokee]

I dont know about your Cherokee, but on mine, all the sheet metal/unibody/frame was galvanized under the paint. Total PITA to weld on properly.

I wasnt saying the project cant be done, I just think that your plan to wing-it is gonna cost you way more than you think.

Take OG's advice and do it right the first time.

Here, let me just give you an example: you "winged it" with your current setup and had issues out at Juniper with your bodywork slicing your tires when we were playing 3-ball a few months ago. This is the kind of thing/cost I am talking about. Or is it your position that you enjoy doing this kind of thing and learning the hard way?

If so, carry on! Let the cameras roll...

No I will take some of OG advice, just not all of it. I have talked with people who have done this/ are doing this project on the same platform.

As for that three ball run, I had forgotten about that piece that had started to tear off. All fixed now thankfully.

Thank you all for the input

[Grumpy]

I for one would really like to see some of the other examples of this project you refer to. I know Jeep puts puffers in some stuff themselves, and I'd even consider one. If I was putting on a squillion miles a year. Your "cause I want to" attitude is good, just don't get all bullheaded when other guys with Cherocars ask questions and throw out ideas!...And have you taken into consideration that you've already compromised your body structure by amputating the back of the roof?

[Ace_Cherokee]

I for one would really like to see some of the other examples of this project you refer to. I know Jeep puts puffers in some stuff themselves, and I'd even consider one. If I was putting on a squillion miles a year. Your "cause I want to" attitude is good, just don't get all bullheaded when other guys with Cherocars ask questions and throw out ideas!...And have you taken into consideration that you've already compromised your body structure by amputating the back of the roof?

I just had a few bad days at the beginning of the week and was hostile.
Oh yea! I know that I have compromised the structural integrity of the Cherokee by cutting it. But I believe with the frame system that I used to build it, it isn’t bad and may even be better due to the fact that it is somewhat tied into everything.

[OldGreen]

If I was going to do this, I would do a few things:

1. strip out the drivetrain, measure for the hole and plate everything.
2. Then gusset the places you plated.
3. Then build a structural space frame/roll cage. Doesn't have to be complex. Luckily, the same shapes that absorb impact are good at resisting torque as well.
4. Stretch the front end out a few". It is truly amazing what just a little front end stretch will do for stability. Since you said you were going to do a long arm set-up anyway, just do it FIRST. You will need to have an engine cage since you don't have frame rails, so mounting the coils and/or coilovers farther forward wouldn't be a big deal.
5. Trussed front axle of the D44 variety or a stock D60. The 44 would likely be fine since you said you won't wheel it much. Stock gearing like 3.73 would work just fine. ..
6. I'd stop believing what I read on the internet. . .the stock radiator needs to be upgraded.
7. Match the rearend to the front (14 bolt, D60, etc.)
8. Measure everything 22 times.
:

Originally Posted by Goat View Post
1. Huh?
2. Gussets/Fishplates are a tad overkill if you choose to plate the unibody rails.
3. That's a judgement call.
4. Perhaps, this falls on "what is the perfect wheelbase" argument.
5. Depends on the axle you source. If it's a 3/4T D44 then the tubes are thick enough. Just gusset the inner C's.
6. No, the stock rad is plenty.
7. Duh.
8. Yes!!! And do this before you start cutting into anything. The front is spring out of shape if you cut out the core support, I know this from experience.

1. He didn't understand the statement. I was actually just saying that if you are going to move the motor back in the chassis, that you should make sure to measure everything prior to firing up the welder. . .including TCase clearance, driveline length based on rear axle choice and position, etc.
2. True. Judgement call based on how you want to use it. There is no such thing as overkill.
3. Again, agreed. Judgement call. You have to decide if it is good judgement or not.
4. While "Goat" has a good grasp on fabrication and mechanics, "what is the perfect wheelbase" had nothing to do with it in this case. It was about weight distribution. Not only that, but it would allow you to drop the engine in the bay a little more.
5. The only argument I have here is that the wheel bearings are a lot beefier on a bigger axle, but the D44 with a proper gusset/truss or the HD44 would probably work fine. Just more compromises. . .
6. OK. But, if I am doing a full drivetrain swap, I'd at least get a high performance stock replacement. Engines are expensive and heat kills them.
7. You'd be amazed at the number of mismatched front/rears I have seen over the years. There are also a lot of people running around in 4x4s with no front drivelines. . .it is a "DUH", but again, common sense isn't that common.
8. . . .and you may be able to weld in a temporary cross member if you have to cut out the core support and the front stock cross member.

One more thing that is directly in my wheelhouse: Tire size. I would imagine that you are going to increase the weight of your Jeep by about 30 to 40% between the new components and all of the steel for reinforcement. Off-road tire performance is all about contact pressure and traction. Any gnarly treaded tire provides traction, but contact pressure is a function of the size of the contact patch at a given psi and the weight of the vehicle. THIS is THE secret sauce to the wheelin' world.

So, to expound: The size of the contact patch is determined by 4 things

1. The weight of the vehicle
2. The Diameter (actually circumference) of the tire
3. The width of the tire.
4. PSI

It is pretty tough math to figure out the exact size of the patch at a given PSI, but you can use a ratio. If you want to have the same amount of floatation as your current set up and the width of the tire is going to be a constant 12.5", you can do the following to get close:

Old Weight:New Weight = Old Tire: New Tire

or, since we don't know the EXACT weights, we can use approximate percentages:

100%:125% = 33:New Tire

So New Tire = 33x1.25= 41.25 rounded up to a 42x12.50 at the SAME PSI. The good news is that a bigger tire is better off at a lower PSI. . .so, you could probably get away with a 37 or 38" tire and have a similar wheelin' experience to your current 33s if you keep the weight gain to around 1000lbs or less.

I know you said that you don't wheel much, but this is the kind of crap that I have swimming around inside my head. I just can't help it. Plus, you probably don't want to end up being worse off on the trail than you are now the few times you go out.

For the record, I dig that goat guy's build. . .

[Ace_Cherokee]

Agreed, his build is going well.
Thanks for the Tire deal, will keep that in mind
and thank you for the other sugestions.
I am going to be on the look out for ssteal to start plating the unibody this weekend if weather permits

[mattawajeep]

I wouldn't mind a 4bt in my TJ, seems like way too much work for an XJ though. Should be awesome if you get it all going though.

[commando14]

We will all be bragging on how our buddy did this when it is in JP magazine.

JP already published an article on the 4BT swap, it was titled "Top 10 Dumbest Jeep Engines Swaps":

http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_1006_top_10_dumbest_jeep_engine_swaps_ever/viewall.html

But for the record I swapped in a 4.0L into my Comanche which they also have on that list.